Compiled from the DUG SCOOPS

Fisher Ridge Summary January 1997 V15 N1 by Peter Quick

1996 was a much better year for exploration and discoveries than 1995 in the Fisher Ridge Cave System. Yet, once again it was an abbreviated year for exploration because of flooding problems in the 1000 Foot Crawl.

In January the year started off with a spirited attempt to push Logsdon Cave down to a level deep enough to attempt a connection with nearby passages in Fisher Ridge. Logsdon Cave is located on the western edge of Northtown Ridge and was only 1000 feet away from part of Fisher Ridge. The cave was pushed down eight drops to about 240 feet deep where a grim lead was turned up that moved a lot of air toward Fisher Ridge, only 200 feet away. After a few digging attempts the lead was abandoned.

February (the 15th anniversary trip) saw the first push trip of the year into the Northtown Ridge section of the cave. One survey team made it into the cave and proceeded to make a huge breakthrough into a new section of the cave, mapping 7125 feet in one survey outing. The main passage in this breakthrough was named Park Avenue. Unfortunately, the extreme high of this discovery was offset when heavy rains trapped the cavers in the cave an additional two and a half days after the three days that they were supposed to be in the cave. This resulted in heavy media publicity on the surface that caused some strains on the project.

The media frenzy helped bring the attention of the Mammoth Cave National Park officials on the project. The Park officials when hearing about a big breakthrough became concerned that passages were either under or very close to the National Park. Park rangers visited Brenda Fisher, our benefactor, to try to intimidate her in order to put pressure on the Fisher Ridge Cave Project to enter negotiations with them. The Fishers weren't intimidated but the effort basically worked. The project entered into negotiations with the Park to get official status to work inside the park if necessary. The process with the Park is not yet complete.

The February trapping resulted in no more Base Camp trips until the Memorial Day weekend at the end of May. In the meantime a trip was made into the 1000 Foot Crawl to remove the main sump obstacle, a big flowstone blob nearly filling the passage. The removal was a success.

Over the Memorial Day weekend two survey teams made it back beyond the 1000 Foot Crawl to Base Camp and managed to map a little less than another mile in the Park Avenue area. The easy leads were used up faster than expected. The Memorial Day trip was cut short by a day when heavy rains caused an upsurge in waters in the cave. The 1000 Foot Crawl was not flooded shut.

In July there was another two team Base Camp trip. One of the focuses of this trip was to perform another cave radio location at the end of the Lost Carbide Complex to try to find a possible site for an entrance dig. A number of mapping trips were made within an hour of Base Camp. Once again a little less than a mile was mapped.

In August Peter Quick purchased a 50 acre farm on the western edge of Northtown Ridge overlaying part of the Fisher Ridge Cave System. Not coincidentally it included two radio locations that had been performed over the last two years. The long term implications of this on the exploration of the Fisher Ridge Cave System are great. If and when a new entrance is dug into the cave, exploration activity should pick up tremendously.

Over the Labor Day weekend in early September one survey team made it into Northtown Ridge for a major push to the east. This resulted in the breakthrough into at least 3000 feet of big trunk passage with a number of good leads noted. It was decided that the passage was the continuation of the Nebulous Trunk and possibly closely related to the continuation of Ice Cave Avenue. Around 2100 feet of passage was mapped.

In November there were two mapping trips into the cave. A day trip to base level in the Thunder River area of the cave netted 450 feet of survey. Then came the Thanksgiving Base Camp trip. Two survey teams entered the cave over two different days, Thursday and Friday. The early team mapped 1150 feet in a sidelead and was then joined with the second team when they returned to camp. Heavy rains and the resulting high waters drove both teams out of the cave two days early. Unfortunately when exiting they found the 1000 Foot Crawl flooded to the ceiling at the site of the "old" sump from the last trapping. A day and a half later after much digging and hauling gear they were able to lower the water enough to swim out of the last 500 feet of the 1000 foot crawl. Because they decided to leave the cave early no one knew that they were trapped, and no media circus or rescue call-out occurred. This was very lucky for the project.

This second trapping in one year is very sobering, it makes it very hard to plan any sort of multi-day trip far in advance because of the uncertainty of the weather.

The result of mapping activity in 1996 resulted in 3.9 miles of passage length being added to the cave. If it weren't for the water and flooding, another few miles could have been easily added to the cave's length.

1997 will probably see a very serious attempt to open a new entrance on Northtown Ridge, for both safety and continuing exploration in the Fisher Ridge Cave System.

Fisher Ridge Summary March 1997 V14 N3 by Peter Quick

During this last reporting period, January and February, there were two mapping trips into Fisher Ridge. On January 19th Joe Saunders and Joel Sparks descended to base level and placed 47 stations for 545 feet of survey in the Pickle Passage area. They knocked off at least three loops. Their approach was via the Pins and Needles crawl from Fisher Avenue and through Cascade and Oakleaf Canyons to Stinky River. See the following trip report for more detail. Joe and Joel returned on the weekend of February 22nd and were joined by Seamus Decker from Georgia. They first surveyed the Metal Crawl in Fisher Avenue. The passage that folks have been stepping over for years marked "Lead". In 200 feet they connected it to Oakleaf Canyon at station X117, through a lead that was deemed as too tight from the other side. They then took up survey in the XG survey that had been previously mapped in 1986 by Steve Miller and Peter Quick. They picked up at station XG23, at a 2' H x 8 ' W water crawl. They put in 430 feet of WSW trending water crawl to where the passage split, both sides definitely passable with airflow. All in all they placed about 45 stations for 700 feet of survey.

There was also a lot of surface activity during January and February at the new dig site on Northtown Ridge. On January 7th and 8th Peter Quick and Dennis Kendrick worked on digging mud out of the new entrance dig. It seems that whatever state the dig is left in it takes a half a day to get back to that point on the next trip. This is because of flooding and the resulting mud slumping and accumulation. They managed to clean up the dig and drill three holes in the smooth bedrock floor as a test of Peter's new hammer drill. The ensuing blast tore out a bunch of the shoring braces but did seem to break up a lot of rock. The shoring was beaten back into place and the rubble was left for the next trip to haul out.

Steve Miller and Peter Quick spent the week of February 2nd to the 9th working on the dig in an attempt make some real progress. On the 2nd they were joined by Jonathan Schwer, Drew Packman, and John Jasper. Many hundreds of pounds of equipment was hauled the half mile to the dig and the day was spent assembling a hauling boom that Steve had manufactured. The boom and supporting cable were rigged to a nearby tree and a winch and pulley was attached to the end of the boom. Once a bucket of debris is winched up out of the hole the boom can be swung to the side where the bucket can be safely handled and dumped. A large boulder loose at the bottom of the dig was also drilled and blasted into gravel.

The next day, Monday was spent fortifying the shoring in the dig to withstand the upward blasting forces that it would be subjected to many more times over the next few months. The loose debris was hauled out and a two sticker was drilled and blasted. On Monday night and Tuesday morning the skies opened and about three inches or rain was dumped on the ridges. It would have been a bad time to be in the cave. Unfortunately most of the key equipment for the dig was sitting down in the sinkhole bottom under a tarp. Normally this would have been fine, but with this much rain the whole sinkhole bottom flooded with about five inches of standing water. The hammer drill, chain saw, blasting machine and the generator all got flooded. The generator stood high enough to not get totally immobilized so they foolishly used it for the rest of the week. The other equipment had to be torn down and cleaned out. A later tear down of the generator showed the insides to be full of mud. Wednesday and Thursday were days of slow but steady progress. On Friday a significant crew had assembled to give the dig a real push. Those in attendance were Jonathan Schwer, Joe Meppelink, Tony Marfia, Larry and Cathy Bean, Brian Davis and Dennis Kendrick.

On Saturday Les Carney and Chip and Eileen Hopper showed up. Drilling, blasting and rubble hauling was fast and furious. When Steve and Peter started on the 2nd the dig was about 14 feet deep. By the end of the 8th the dig had reached a little over 25 feet deep. It is estimated that the dig is at least half way finished.

Fisher Ridge Summary April 1997 V15 N4 by Peter Quick

During the month of March there were three trips to the Quick Exit dig. On March 10th Peter Quick and Steve Miller drove down during the big flood to inspect the dig and do some shoring work. The dig was left in February with a 9 foot wall of unsupported mud and clay. The flooding had caused a good sized collapse and dumped about three feet of mud on the bottom. They added a big chunk of plywood and a bunch of braces but didn't dig out any of the mud. Apparently 12 inches of rain had fallen in the area. The Green River was 48 feet higher than normal. The flooding was impressive.

Over the weekend of March 21, 22 & 23 Peter Quick, Larry Bean , Joel Sparks and Jonathan Schwer dug out the slumped mud made a few more feet of progress on the dig. Much effort was spent on shoring. By the end of the weekend the dig was about 27 feet deep.

Over the last weekend of March, the 29th and 30th, Steve Miller, Joan Miller, and Jonathan Schwer did some excavation and placed a big four stick charge. The blast tore up a bit of the new shoring which was duly bashed back into place. No debris hauling took place after the blast.

The next digging trip is planned over the weekend of April 25th. It is hoped that a few more feet of downward progress can be made. After that a big trip is expected over the Memorial Day weekend at the end of May.

Fisher Ridge Summary May and June 1997 V15 N5 by Peter Quick

Over the last two months there were two digging trips to the Quick Exit and one survey trip into Fisher Ridge. During the weekend of April 26th Joe Saunders led a survey trip through Oakleaf Canyon down to base level to do some mop-up. With him were Larry Rudd, Cynthia Norris and Charlie Pflanze. They managed to place 22 stations for 306 feet of survey. The first 9 stations were placed in a side lead off Oakleaf Canyon near its junction with Stinky River. The other 13 stations were placed in a side lead in the Pickle Passage area. The Fisher Ridge Cave System now stands at 82.14 miles in length

Also during the weekend of April 26th Brian Davis, Steve Miller and Peter Quick put in two and a half digging days at the Quick Exit. They had two very productive digging days before being washed out by heavy rain on Sunday. They managed to extend the dig from 27 feet to 30 feet deep. The time it took to hand crank the spoils from the dig was a major impediment.

The next digging trip was over the Memorial Day holiday, May 23rd to the 26th. Steve Miller, Mike Fitch and Peter Quick spent three solid days of drilling blasting and hauling before running out of explosives Sunday afternoon. On Friday they were joined by Rick Olsen for the entire day. On Saturday Chip and Eileen Hopper showed up and worked for the rest of the weekend. On Sunday Jonathan Schwer and John Jasper showed up after a Jackpot Cave trip to help in the days digging. Steve Miller introduced three innovations that resulted in much faster progress in the dig. First he adapted a barrel fan of Peter Quick's to push fresh air into the dig after a blast. The fan was hooked to a long flexible tube (6 inch diameter) that reaches the bottom of the dig. It now takes little over 15 minutes to clear the noxious blast fumes. Sheets of corrugated metal were nailed along one side of the shoring down into the hole so that the hauling bucket wouldn't catch on the shoring and thus reduce the risk of dumping a load of rock on the miners below. The best improvement however was the introduction of Steve's 1/2 electric drill. He found that he could hook up a socket to it to turn the nut holding the winch handle. A nearly full bucket of rock (45 lbs.) could be lifted 35 feet in 35 seconds. In three days the dig was extended from 30 feet to a bit over 35 feet in depth.

The next digging trip will probably be sometime in mid-June. Digging trips will also take place in July and August, when if luck prevails, the dig will breach the cave. Cash donations are being accepted to help off set the costs of equipment and supplies that are being consumed in the process. The dig is consuming at least a few thousand dollars. Checks can be made out to Peter Quick or Steve Miller.

Fisher Ridge Summary July 1997 V15 N7 by Peter Quick

There was one digging trip to report on during the month of June. Steve Miller, Les Carney and Larry and Kathy Bean spent the weekend of June 14th at the Northtown entrance dig. Heavy rain on Saturday created what could be described as poor working conditions at the best. Several hours of muck and water hauling was needed before drilling could begin. Five holes were drilled and set off by late Saturday. On Sunday the rubble was cleared and another five holed were drilled and set off. The equipment was hauled out and no rubble hauling took place as the day was getting late for the long drive back to Michigan. The next digging weekend is scheduled for the 4th of July weekend.

Fisher Ridge Summary August, Sept, Oct 1997 V15 N8,9,10 by Peter Quick

Since the last issue of the DUG SCOOPS in July there have been four digging trips to the "Quick Exit" on Northtown Ridge, along with one survey trip into Fisher Ridge over the weekend of October 12th. To summarize the survey trip, Joe Saunders, Joel Sparks and Seamus Decker took a trip back through the Pin and Needles Crawl and surveyed a number of loops and leads at the upstream end of Cascade Canyon. They placed about 20 stations for 400 feet of survey. Joe reports only about two good leads remaining in the whole Cascade / Oakleaf Canyon area. He has been slowly picking them off over the last few years. All together perhaps three miles of passage has been mapped in this area since being discovered in 1985.

The July 4th digging trip was well attended by Peter Quick, Steve Miller, Chip and Eileen Hopper, Ron Adams, Jonathan Schwer, Herb Scott, Les Carney and a number of others. Heavy rains flooded the site and the dig, never the less about four feet of additional depth was made, by working long hours late into a couple of nights, pushing the depth to about 40 feet.

The next trip was on August 8th and 9th. This was attended by Steve Miller, Brian Davis, Mike Fitch, Reid Beauchamp, Herb Scott, Jonathan Schwer, and Les Carney. When they arrived at the dig they were confronted with five feet of standing water at the bottom of the dig. Many hours were spent bailing out the well before drilling and blasting could get going. The depth of the pit was extended to about 43 feet by the end of the weekend. This weekend also resolved a question that had been nagging Peter Quick for a couple of months. Over the Memorial Day weekend Peter began to suspect that perhaps the dig wasn't exactly over the dome that was surveyed to below. The solidness of the rock and the lack of fractures didn't seem to be indicative of nearing the top of a dome which they should have been getting close to. A survey shot was taken from the cave radio location on the surface to the center of the dig. It was discovered that the entrance pit was off to the southeast of the dome by at least seven feet. The dome that is being dug into is not a very large dome, perhaps no more than four feet wide by ten feet long, a fairly easy target to miss. This helped explain the lack of fractures and drainage of in the dig. Looking back over the survey notes indicated that the top of the dome was probably at least 53 feet below the surface, not 45 feet that Peter had at first thought. The height of the dome had just been estimated and could be easily a little less high, thus the dig may have to be even deeper. This was not great information, but was very necessary to plan the next avenue of attack.

We had initially began the dig in the right spot but had subsequently lost it as the result of our huge ampho blast and the following backhoe work. We never thought to re-shoot the dig location, we just kept digging at the deepest spot we had come up with after we hired a backhoe. The dig had moved away from it's proper spot.

Over the Labor Day weekend a good sized crew of Peter Quick, Dennis Kendrick, Ron Adams, Tony Marfia, Chip and Eileen Hopper, Herb Scott, Amy Cothron, Bonnie True and Jonathan Schwer was assembled. The productivity of each blast was rapidly diminishing. Previously five or six holes loaded with 1/3 pound sticks could yield an additional foot of depth per blast cycle. The depth diminished to six inches per blast cycle. The number of holes and charges had to be increased to eight sticks to regain the foot per blast that we had grown accustomed to. Unfortunately drilling seven or eight holes took much longer than five holes. The diggers started to drift the shaft bottom to the north west and on the last blast of the weekend managed to pick up some clay seams in the bedrock, indicating the dome may be getting a bit closer. The shaft was left at 47 feet deep.

The weekend of October 12th saw the next siege of diggers on the "Quick Exit". This time Peter Quick, Larry Bean, Dennis Kendrick, Jonathan Schwer, Herb Scott and Jon Smith sweated on the dig. The dig was started by an eight sticker which took nearly three hours to drill and set up. After the smoke cleared Jonathan climbed down to the bottom and soon reported that there was fresh air blowing out of four of the drill holes. The bottoms had been blown out of them but had left the first eight inches of the holes intact. The other four holes had broken up a bunch of rock. This was exciting news. Four sticks were quickly placed in the blowing holes and set off. The next day, digging revealed a low room had been intersected to the northwest of the dig shaft. There was noticeable air flow coming out of it. More holes were drilled in the walls, ceiling and floor to enlarge access to the room. After the blast, the low room had been transformed into a larger room filled with treacherous breakdown. The room marked the transition between a completely mud and rock filled dome above and the bedrock below. In the bedrock and flowstone floor a small solutional hole (5" x 12") was found. The hole had been filled with blast debris. At least 4000 lbs. of rubble was removed (winched up the shaft) from the new room. By Sunday afternoon the room was fairly well hollowed out and the floor cleared of loose rock. The solutional hole had been cleared out as much as possible but was still clogged deeper down by debris. The wind made a low drone working its way through the fill in the hole. It is hoped that we are now right above the dome below. How deep the solutional slot is before it bells out into the dome is not known. The bottom of the dig is now at -51 feet. The loose mud and sandstone ceiling of the room is a cause for concern as it will undoubtedly continue to spall off since it has been effectively undermined by us. Caution should be used when working under it. At some point some sort of culvert will be placed under the collapsing filled dome above.

The shaft is really a marvel. The thought of sinking a shaft that deep through solid rock without the help of a predrilled pilot hole (as in the case of the back entrance into Hicks Cave, KY, 50+ feet deep with a 4" pilot hole, or Honey Creek Cave, TX, 100 feet deep with a 10" pilot hole) is sometimes hard to imagine. The dig is not yet done. It will probably take another couple of trips to breach the top of the dome and then quite a bit more work to make the shaft safe to use, culverts, a gate. We've worn out two winches, we're on our third. We've used at least $1000.00 in explosives. Hundreds of dollars of materials have been used in the shoring process. A few people have spent lots of money on special tools (although the tools will still be useful after the dig). Installation of a culvert and gate will probably cost another $700. Cash donations to the dig are still being accepted. A number of us have virtually given up caving for the last year to work on the dig. When it is complete it will be something to be real proud of for those who worked so hard. For those who hope to use the new exit who haven't "put out", they should anticipate a good delay between completion of the entrance and their having any sort of use of it.

Fisher Ridge Summary Nov and Dec 1997 V15 N11 and 12 by Peter Quick

The first bit of interesting news is that Steve Miller recently bought a piece of property that adjoins Peter Quick's property on the east side. He bought about 14 acres from Howard Poteet along with a mobile home already on the property. Steve has put out the word that cavers can use his house, but only if accompanied by himself, Joan Miller or Peter Quick. It has heat, electricity and running water. The house must be kept clean, no muddy boots, don't leave trash. Nothing is to be left in the house, sleeping bags, old boots, cave supplies, anything. The mobile home shouldn't be considered a "field house". A more appropriate name for it is "Steve's Karst Resort".

During the month of November there was a trip to the Quick Exit dig over the weekend of the 15th and 16th. Many folks had planned to make it down to the dig yet by the weekend most had dropped out. Those who made it were, Peter Quick, Steve Miller, Mike Fitch, Larry Bean, Herb Scott, his nephew?, and Les Carney. It was a pleasure to be able to sleep in the comfort of the Karst Resort.

The dig site was attacked before noon on Saturday. Perhaps ten buckets of rubble were hauled out before drilling began. The dig no longer held water even though the previous week had seen some heavy rain. A five sticker was drilled and set off. The smoke cleared quickly, into the dig! Twenty or so buckets later a six sticker was drilled and charged (1/3 lb. per stick). The smoke cleared almost instantly. It was a really good sign. After hauling out about 15 buckets of rock Steve uncovered a fist sized hole sucking a tremendous amount of air. When he held his carbide lamp in front of it the flame was sucked out. Peter switched digging positions with Steve and set about beating the hole with a small sledge. Soon the hole was about a foot in diameter. Rocks could be tossed into a canyon passage whose floor was maybe eight feet lower. A few rocks bounced down another lower pit. Spirits were high. A three sticker was drilled and detonated around midnight. The diggers rushed back down into the clear air. The airflow was tremendous. It felt as though the sinkhole bottom had sprung a leak and all the air was draining into the cave. From this point forward we no longer had to winch debris up to the surface. All the debris could be simply pushed down the hole. What a time saver. Steve squirmed into the canyon and reported that it opened up below, but that it was too tight to get down.

A retreat was made to Steve's house and before going to sleep it was resolved that no one would leave on Sunday until the cave radio location room in the cave had been entered. A good start was made on Sunday with the drilling placement of a four stick charge. The smoke vanished into the cave. Mike was able to squeeze down the crack into the passage below. There he was able to look down a hole that was about ten feet deep. Another drop could be seen below. The crack was still really tight. Peter also squeezed down to look around. After they both squeezed out the drill was sent down for some further widening work. Just as Peter started drilling the generator quit, never to be started again. Herb's rope was sent down and rigged down the last two drops. Peter free climbed the ten foot drop to an overlook into the cave-radio room. The next drop was about fifteen feet deep and not free climbable. Steve did the honors and rappelled into the cave to officially connect the Quick Exit with the cave. Peter and Mike followed. Poor Larry got stuck in the canyon passage above and couldn't join Peter, Steve and Mike for a familiarization walk down the Lost Carbide Complex toward Base Camp. An hour or so later they returned and climbed out the Quick Exit.

The dig took 14 months to break into the cave and is not yet complete. The dig was pushed 55 feet vertically before cave passage was breached.

Later in November over the Thanksgiving weekend a little more work was performed on the Quick Exit. Dennis & Denny Kendrick drove down from Michigan as did Steve Miller. Jon Smith from Wisconsin showed up on Friday and Ron Adams and Jonathan Schwer showed up on Saturday morning. A few more holes were drilled in the tight canyon slot and after the appropriate explosions the tight slot was no longer tight. Not much else was accomplished on the dig. A number of short trips were taken into the cave to familiarize various folks with the way into the Lost Carbide Complex. At one point Dennis Kendrick was poking around in the cave-radio room and found an overlooked hole in the floor perhaps just 20 feet away from the new entrance. He climbed down into it to discover a nice flat floored canyon passage 6 feet wide by 8 feet high. He scooped it for about 200 feet before turning around. He was very excited about his find. Jonathan and Ron also took a look at the new passage and then made a trip to Base camp to retrieve some gear that had been left a few years earlier.

The last trip to report on occurred over the weekend of December 21st. Peter Quick and Dennis Kendrick met up with Jonathan Schwer to do a bit more shoring on the dig in the lower alcove room fifty feet down and to also do a bit of easy surveying. While eating breakfast in Horse Cave in walked Joe Meppelink. He was on his way back to Michigan driving from Texas where had moved to for graduate school. He had no idea that cavers were going to be in Kentucky. He was just curious. He was quickly talked him into seeing the new entrance and participating in a bit of easy survey. The shoring and work plans were scrapped for the time being.

The survey destination was Dennis's lead off the cave-radio room. The canyon was as nice as had been described. After about 15 stations Joe had to leave the cave to continue his drive back to Michigan. Peter, Dennis and Jonathan surveyed on. After about 60 stations the passage degenerated into a high sinuous narrow canyon. The passage had been trending to the southeast semi-parallel to the Lost Carbide Complex, but lower. The survey was going paleo-upstream. It took another 40 stations before the survey thankfully ended by tying into the floor of the Lost Carbide Complex at station 33. In all 101 stations were placed for 2300 feet of survey in just 12 hours. A Quick Exit was made and the cavers were in bed in Steve's Karst Resort by midnight.

The next morning work was actually performed on the dig. Shoring was placed in the shaky collapsing room 50 feet down. It should be considered a temporary fix. A poured concrete wall will probably be necessary sometime in the future. It was also determined that a bunch more drilling and blasting would be necessary to widen the shaft for the insertion of a 30 inch wide culvert. The actual diameter of the culvert may have to be a bit smaller. The entrance will probably feel a bit claustrophobic when finished.

BIG SURVEY TRIP PLANNED

There is a survey planned over the third weekend of January. Monday is being taken off so that the trip can take place over three days. It is hoped that three to four survey teams can be assembled. Some hard pushing and long trips are planned. Contact Peter Quick for details and permission to go on the trip. There will have to be at least a few more work weekends on the dig. For those who haven't taken the opportunity to help out on the dig don't fret, there is still time to contribute to the effort. Santa's watching.

MY LAST NEWSLETTER

The next and future issues of the DUG SCOOPS will be produced by Steve Miller and Joan Miller. I've sort of let the newsletter schedule fall apart for the end of 1997. My move to New Hampshire was a bit more disruptive to my schedule than I anticipated. So much to do, no time to do it. The lack of much caving over the last year in Fisher Ridge certainly didn't make for much breaking news. The dig is interesting but hardly the makings for a monthly newsletter. Once the cave survey gets going again, the trip reports and breaking news should make the job of producing regular editions of the DUG SCOOP easier. My goal for 1998 is to push the cave to at least 90 miles in length. It would also be nice if we could push the cave to 100 miles in length by the year 2000, a goal I don't believe to be unreasonable.