From James Trimm jstrimm@h... Thu Dec  9 20:05:05 1999
               Delivered-To: listsaver-of-chofjclist@egroups.com
               Received: (listserv 1.291); by f8; 10 Dec 1999 04:08:43 -0000
               Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-chofjclist@egroups.com
               Received: (qmail 22382 invoked from network); 10 Dec 1999 04:08:38 -0000
               Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (151.164.30.28) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 1999 04:08:38 -0000
               Received: from [151.164.45.152] ([151.164.47.17]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id 0FMI00AXLBHQBQ@m... for chofjclist@egroups.com; Thu,  9 Dec 1999 22:08:23 -0600 (CST)
               Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 22:08:23 -0600 (CST)
               Date-warning: Date header was inserted by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net
               From: James Trimm jstrimm@h...
               In-reply-to: 19991209.182805.108.1.Jaredson@j...
               X-Sender: jstrimm@n...
               To: chofjclist@egroups.com
               Message-id: <l0310280bb48e7f245bbb@[151.164.45.152]>
               Mailing-List: contact chofjclist-owner@egroups.com
               X-Mailing-List: chofjclist@egroups.com
               Precedence: bulk
               List-Help: <http://www.egroups.com/group/chofjclist/info.html,>
                <mailto:chofjclist-help@egroups.com
               List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:chofjclist-unsubscribe@egroups.com
               List-Archive: <http://www.egroups.com/group/chofjclist/>
               Reply-To: chofjclist@egroups.com
               Subject: [chofjclist] Re: New/Old Covenants & "forever"
               MIME-Version: 1.0
               Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
               Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

               >The term "forever" as used in the scripture can be a relative term:
               >

               Lest anyone should not be able to understand that forever means forever, hashem
               often adds the explanitory phrase "for all of your generation."  Therefore
               as long as Jews are reproducing, the Torah is in effect.

               >If the male descendants of Aaron were to continue this practice
               >"forever", then I would have to ask why the Lord rent the veil of the
               >temple when He died on the cross?

               It is a common middle eastern custom to rent ones garment as an act of greif.

               >  This verse would suggest that the
               >ordinances that Aaron and his sons performed in the tabernacle, with the
               >sacrifices, the lampstand, etc., should continue to be practiced even
               >into the millennium reign of Christ, and after the final judgment.

               Well its easy to see if we are right.  Let us check the scriptures:

               1.  Did the offerings continue AFTER the death of Messiah?

                       A.  Yes. (Acts 21:17-26/Num. 6:13-21; Acts 24:17-18)

               2.  Will the offerrings take place in the Millennial Temple?

                       A.  Yes (Ezek. 43:18-27)
 

               >Hebrews 8
               >6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he
               >is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better
               >promises.
               >7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place
               >have been sought for the second.
               >8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the
               >Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with
               >the house of Judah;
               >9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the
               >day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;
               >because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith
               >the Lord.
               >10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
               >after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and
               >write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall
               >be to me a people;
               >
               >Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first
               >old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
               >

               In Heb.8:6 the word "fault" is better translated "blame" ...
               at any rate the "fault"/"blame" was not with the Torah but with us (Heb. 8:7)
               The Torah statese that if we violate the Torah we will face a penalty as a
               people (Deut. 28&29) but promises to renew the Covenant (Deut. 30 which
               closely parallels Jer. 31:31)

               Jer. 31:31f promises that YHWH will renew the covenant.

               Hebrews 8:13 literally reads in the Aramaic:

               By that which he called renewed, he made the first antiquated, and that
               which is antiquated and old is near to corruption.
 

               "he" is Jeremiah who lived aound 600 BCE.  If this passage means that the
               Torah was abolished when "he" Jeremish used the word "new" in Jer. 31:31
               then that would teach
               that the Torah was abolished in 600 BCE !!!!

               Obviously that is not what it means.  The key is this:  Heb. 8:6 is the
               introduction to a quote from Jer. 31:31f which is followed by Heb. 8:13.

               He. 8:6-7 says that he found fault with us not the Torah.

               Heb. 8:13 says that we made the Torah antiquated and near to corruption by
               violating it.