Thank you, Kim, for the forward. However, my point that I made with you in the chat room last week still stands for a few reasons.

First, I agree totally with Chuck's analysis of the dating of the NT and also with his summary of the early church's acceptance of those writings. However, my point is that there were many books that were in disagreement as to their inspiration (or not). None of these "disputed" books were in the "gnostic" category described by Chuck, though that category existed as well.

These books included the Didache, 1 Clement, 2 Clement, Shepherd of Hermas, Epistle of Barnabas, Gospel to the Hebrews, Apocalypse of Peter, and others. None of these were "gnostic" but all were considered "inspired" by at least some of the early Christians. Now, I don't think I have to inform you that none of these "disputed books" that I've listed are in our Bibles today. So when were they "rejected" and by whom????? If you put no stock in the councils that finally rejected these books, you are in a historical quandry.

Second, even Chuck has acknowledged that certain books which are in our NT today were originally "disputed." This fact cannot be simply "brushed aside," as nearly every apologist seems to want to do. The fact is that at a point in history, these books ceased to be "disputed." It is clear that some of the "disputed" books - both those above and those in the previous paragraph - were still being "disputed" at the time of the Nicea council (cf. Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History). Such disputations were laid to rest only at the Council of Hippo, which made "official" the listing of NT books by Athanasius not too many years earlier (and he was the first to list the NT books precisely as we have them today!). As I am sure Chuck knows, the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus manuscripts actually contain some of the "disputed" books that we consider non-canonical today.

So then, the idea that the Church has "always" possessed a "complete" NT since AD 80 is decidedly false ... the final canon as it is known today came much later at the Council of Hippo. However, this fact does not make the RCC "the true Church." Protestants should simply embrace the reality of the historic Christian Church! Let's quit embarassing ourselves by juggling historic facts!

William Kilgore