The following letter is the first in my correspondence with Karen Schindler, then an aid to Scott Hahn, an evangelical convert to Roman-Catholicism. While not convincing me to convert to Catholicism, Ms. Schindler was very gracious, kind and intelligent. Much of what she wrote provoked some heavy thought on my part. After the letter I have provided links to further letters in the correspondence.



January 8, 1997

Dear Mr. Kilgore:

Thank you for your recent letter. I hope you enjoyed the beauty of the Christmas season! Dr. Hahn is out of town and as his plate is extremely full at the point. So I hope you don't mind too much if I offer a few thoughts in response to your letter.

As a convert myself, I can very much appreciate the difficulty and humility involved in making the concessions you outline at the beginning of your letter. It is very exciting to see how our Lord is leading you!

First there are two guiding axioms which I found to be very helpful in my search. You are probably familiar with them, but I thought I would mention them at the outset just in case it helps. One is Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi (the rule of prayer is the rule of faith). The prayers of the Church, found in her liturgies, reflect the teachings of the faith of the Church. (For example, the Church celebrated the Assumption of Mary in her liturgy for centuries before it was defined as an article of faith.) The second is the idea of the Catholic "both/and" instead of "either/or". The clearest example of this is in the definition of the Person of Christ: He is both fully God and fully man. I find myself often wanting to look at various articles of faith and say it must be this way or that way. In Catholicism, it is often both ways. Consequently we are often faced with mystery and forced to assume a disposition of humility

With respect to a few of the issues you raise, I have the following comments:

1. Perhaps you could define what you mean by the "modern concepts" of Apostolic succession and Tradition? If you mean that the ideas we now hold are not exactly the same as those to the Fathers, then I think your are right. However, I would also say that what we now hold is not contrary to the Fathers. We have experienced organic growth. Revelation (with a capital "R") ceased with the death of the last Apostle; however, our understanding of that Revelation continues to grow and mature.

2. With respect to Mary: The Church defines doctrine based on the one single deposit of Faith (per Dei Verbum #10 [from the Second Vatican Council] also, CCC #84) which consists of both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The teaching office of the Church, the Magisterium, receives no new Revelation but only that which has been handed down from the Apostles.

According to Dei Verbum #9 both channels (Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition) are to be equally revered. Therefore, it is logical to define dogmatically the Assumption of Mary based on the single deposit of faith, even if no explicit reference exists in Sacred Scripture. Specifically in this regard, Pope Pius XII points out that the Assumption is clearly related to two other dogmas on Mary. First, she is Theotokos (431 A.D, Council of Ephesus), "God-Bearer", or "Mother of God". Because she is the Mother of Jesus, who is God, Mary is the Mother of God (c.f., Lk. 1:35; Gal 4:4). As Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly, He would have honored His mother (4th Commandment of Decalogue) in every way possible. So, assuming her into heaven, body and soul, is one way Jesus honors His mother.

Pius XII also relates the Assumption to Mary's Immaculate Conception (dogmatically defined in 1854 by Pius IX in Ineffabilis Deus). The Immaculate Conception is based on Mary being "full of grace" (Lk. 1:28). Ignace de la Potterie (a modern scholar) translates the Greek root "kecharitomene" as "you who have been transformed by grace". If Mary had been and remained (present participle, effected in the past and having ongoing relevance) "gratia plena" (full of grace), then the consequences of sin and death (per St. Paul Rom 5-8; Heb. 2) would not effect her. Though she may experience temporary separation from body and soul (as Christ did) she would not experience death due to corruption of the body.

There is an implicit reference to Mary's Assumption in Sacred Sacred Scripture. Revelation 12:1 mentions the "woman clothed with the sun" and this passage is interpreted as Mary's coronation -- implying a preceding assumption into glory. Also, after Christ's crucifixion there is mention of the dead souls (and bodies) rising from the grave, thereby implying the possibility of such an occurrence.

Regarding Mary as Co-Mediatrix I would like to refer you to a collection of essays edited by Dr. Mark Miravalle. The title is "Mary, Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate: Theological Foundations". I am not sure where to pick it up other than by ordering through the Franciscan University of Steubenville Bookstore (614-283-3771). There are several helpful essays contained therein, some of which are based on the writings of the Patristics. One is by Fr. de la Pottiere entitled "The Meditation of the Mother of Jesus at the Incarnation: An Exegetical Study". de la Pottiere states, "the role played by the mother [in the Incarnation] is clearly a meditating role. Her part indeed was indispensable for the effective realization of the Incarnation, that is , so that the Son of God would truly become flesh, become "Jesus the man". ...The human engendering of the Word mad flesh was the work of the Father; but it could only have been realized in the womb of a woman who was entirely at the disposal of the action of God in her."

The authors frequently point to several key passages in the Gospels where Mary mediates the works of Christ: John 2, the wedding Feast of Cana, among them. Dr. Miravalle tells a story of meeting Mother Teresa when she said to him, "Of course Mary is the Co-Redemptrix, she provided Christ with the instrument of salvation." No theologian could state it more succinctly! Of course the formal cause of our redemption and salvation is Christ, but the instrument through which He accomplished this work is His Incarnated Body. This body "provided" by Mary. Could God have chosen another way? Yes. Did He? No. She is the "instrumental" cause of our redemption not by necessity, but by design. It was our Lord's choice to use her in His mission and it is our privilege to honor her as He did.

3. With respect to transubstantiation, the Church regards the Real Presence of Christ in the Bread and the Wine as Divine Mystery. The Catechism makes this fairly clear (see sections 1356-1401 (esp. 1380, 1381), while at the same time the Church has struggled to understand this greatest mystery by explaining the distinctions between form and matter, etc.

4. As you know "Pope" is simply Italian for "Father". The simple answer to when did the Bishop become the Pope? is to say when Christ told Peter that he was the rock upon which the Church was to be built. (Mat. 16) To the best of my (limited) knowledge the "Infallible Vicar of Christ" is not an official title of the Holy Father. "Vicar of Christ" is because he is Christ's representative on earth. The Holy Father may teach infallibly when he intends to, but he himself is not infallible, and has never claimed to be. You say you have surveyed papal history and found things you view as problematic. Although this obviously troubles you (and me!) I might ask you to look at the glass as half-full instead of half-empty. That is, in spite of all the attempts to squelch the early Church, to overthrow the papal estates, to discredit the Popes and to kill the Church -- we are still here and we can trace the succession of our Popes back to St. Peter! There were plenty of corrupt Popes along the way, true. However, not one of them ever taught anything contrary to the Tradition of the Church. (Perhaps they were too busy with other things!) The point being, our Lord's words hold true: even the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church!

5. The celibacy of the priesthood is a small "t" tradition of the Church. It could, in theory, change. We know, for example, that St. Peter himself was married. Celibacy was imposed as a discipline several centuries into our history. However, to say that it is a violation of Scripture puzzles me. St. Paul says, "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. ...Only, let every one lead the life which the Lord has assigned to him, and in which God has called him." (1 Cor. 7:8, 17) We know that in heaven we are neither married nor given in marriage. Perhaps I misunderstand your point.... I'm not sure how celibacy could contradict Scripture when St. Paul seems to suggest that it is appropriate if the Lord calls you to it.

Practically speaking there are certainly "pros" and "cons" to the celibate priesthood. As you probably know, the Eastern Rite Catholic Church allows for married priests and in the United States, pastors ordained under Protestant denominations have the option of becoming priests after they have converted (even if they are married with children). Most priests I know would not be able to accomplish half of what they do in their ministry if they were also trying to be good husbands and fathers. The most important thing a priest does is offer the Sacraments. When he has the freedom ad flexibility to travel around, to say Mass at anytime of the day anywhere, to visit people in the hospital day and night, etc. without neglecting his family, he has the opportunity to be a very good priest.

6. Regarding purgatory I'll only say there are implicit references to purgatory found in Lk. 12:59; Heb. 9:27; 1 Pet. 3: 19; Mt. 12: 32; 1 Cor. 3:15; Col. 1:24; 1 Jn. 5:17; Rev. 21:27 and 2 Macc 12:46. For further reading on this subject as well as saints and angels, Peter and the Papacy, and many other relevant topics, you might look at Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keation, available through Ignatius Press. It's written at a more popular level, but it provides clear answers.

7. Catholic teaching has never argued against "justification by faith". However, the Council of Trent had significant problems when Martin Luther inserted the word "alone" at the end! The only time the Holy Spirit ever inspired nay Biblical author to write the phrase "justification by faith alone", is when James wrote in 2:24 that "A man is not justified by faith alone." For further study on this subject may I suggest Dr. Hahn's series on "Justification" and his more extensive series on the Book of Romans dealing with the same topic.

Finally regarding the "appearance" of the Church versus the teaching of the Church: this is certainly a topic worthy of much prayer and meditation. I remember when I was first convinced of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I watched hundreds of people go up to the Communion line and file back to their seats without any apparent change. I thought, "how can that be?" Way back then, the answer came to me and it is still the same today: "It's a mystery". As a daily communicant I ask myself, "Why was I not completely transformed today when I received the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ into my body?" "How can I still be living and breathing, sinful creature that I am, after touching Christ, how is Perfect Holiness?" I don't know. But what is true for me on a micro-level, I think is true for the millions of souls who make up the Body of Christ at the macro-level.

There are also many, many signs of hope. Here in Steubenville, of all places, there exists a beautiful Catholic community. I know of several Apostolic Lay Movements in the Church where there are individuals and families living out their Catholic faith in beautiful and radical ways -- while they live out their every day lives "seasoning the temporal order". These various Movements and Organizations are worldwide and they provide just a few reasons for many to say they believe the Catholic Church to be on the verge of a new Springtime.

There is much more I could say, but I'm sure I've already said too much. Thank you for writing and especially for your honest and dedicated search for Truth! May our Lord continue to guide you and fill your heart with a deep longing for more of Him.

Sincerely in Christ,

Karen Schindler
Staff Assistant


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